Where is angels fall mine in defiance

You may not be able to give your kids full adult autonomy, but a little autonomy goes a long way,-believe me. In the example about not going to school, my first question is why doesn't she want to go to school? Is she being bullied?

Is there a conflict with teachers? Most kids don't hate school for no reason whatsoever. Maybe they're not engaged enough, find it boring, or are being bullied.

What if it was something much more serious? Sexual abuse, anyone? The point is, the original motive was probably not just to spite mom and dad, but it may become partly once a power struggle ensues. When you merely bark orders, you close off a door to more honest and open communication.

Why not think of ways to make school better? Maybe even change schools, or find a different way to get one's education. Often, there are more solutions than meet the eye. It's not just "my way or the highway". Try to dig a little deeper into why your kid may refuse to do things.

In my mind, a power struggle can signal that the kid's behavior, and by extension, their problems are merely inconvenient to the parent, and that's the only reason why the parent wants them stopped, as opposed to the child's best interests. Think of it this way, are you putting your foot down for you, or for them? Maybe it's time to rethink YOUR priorities Hi,I'm a single parent,of ,an adopted son age 5,he's my world ,but I'm not his I have trouble with daycares because he is so defiant, he wont follow the rules, runs off when told it's time to go in from play,he tells me no,he hits me when I'm not giving him attention.

I'm lost and I have yo say I have spanked him,I cryed. As pointed out in the article above, it tends. I have a 19 year old daughter has failed her senior year twice.

Her reason was because she didnt want to leave her friends. Side note: my daughter is a major whiner and fusses to get what she wants when she wants, lies and twist things to fit her needs. Always puts herself first. Loves to cause fist fight with her older sister. These days are horrible. No peace! I just can't any more. I'm done trying to lay down rules to her.

She throws up in my face all the time that she is 19 and capable of making her own decisions. But let someone ruffle her feathers and she comes crying to me wanting me to fix the problem. And I'm serious real tears. She is a hot mess. She cares about nothing but that damn phone and her friends. She trying to act like a bad ass and she is gonna keep that mess up and run into the right person some day and they are gonna her her out with that nasty attitude.

House rules She has had a horrible choice of friends in the past. She is a follower and not a leader. She snuck boys over and snuck out. Tonight I told her have your friend over here cause we arent comfortable with not knowing who your staying with or where your gonna be. I'm sick of this! She graduates in June. I'm sick of her talking advantage of me. I had to quit my job and stay at home because she wouldn't get up and go to school. Both my husband and I left before 5am. The school would call me and tell me she didnt show up again.

I would have to drive 45 minutes one way to wake her up make her shower take her to school listen to the fussing like I did something wrong. Now every morning I wake her up 3 or 4 times. Force her out the door and she sits on the porch purposely miss the bus and I have to take her to school anyways.

This person is out of control. She never on time for her job. She just doesn't Care. But when it comes to her friends or something she wants to do For example, instead of telling her that she cannot have a boyfriend, it.

Please be sure to write back and let us know. Jason Fibish, I have a child just like yours. He is 11 years old and always does as he is told and with very little fuss. When given responsibility he acts sensibly and regulates himself. We took the same approach as you, and taught him the importance of eating and drinking right, and brushing his teeth. And we provided consequences for his actions. He really is a model child. If he was our only child I would probably be smugly holding forth on parenting forums just like you are, convinced that his agreeable personality was the result of my excellent parenting choices.

However I have another boy, raised the same way, who is defiant and has been difficult since the moment he came out of the womb. Now he's hit puberty and is absolutely unbearable. He does not give a fig for consequences and would rather suffer the most heinous consequences than do something he doesn't want to do or stop doing something he does want to do. You are clearly convinced that nurture trumps nature. You are wrong. It's a mixture of both, and in my experience nature is a very powerful force.

Not every child will respond to the same parenting techniques. You are simply lucky to have a child who is compliant by nature and who responds to your chosen parenting style. I wish you luck and hope that he remains that way.

This was my polite response - had I responded without having gone away and taken a few deep breaths the response would have been unprintable! JasonFibishI have three children, one now an adult at 20, two still in their teens. They were all, up to the age of thirteen, usually obedient,fairly happy, reasonably responsible and pretty much together kids.

The oldest two still are, in spite of some serious medical challenges no. My youngest, a girl of fifteen, was once like your Luke too. Right now she varies between being sweet and loving,and acting like Satan on steroids. It is much too early for you to be claiming that your not-even-five year old will always remain a calm, obedient child.

It may happen for you It may not, though - you may end up with a 'crazy man' for a while. The one thing I did do 'right' was never claim that my children would always be angels. I hoped, prayed, and taught them as well as I knew how, and I continue to do that now. I still love my daughter, even in her most obnoxious moments. I trust you will do the same with your Luke, should he go off the path a bit down the track. A little humility in parenting goes along way. I don't blame anyone or anything EVER for my child's behavior but the fact is, not every child, no matter how good of an example you set, how young you start, what rules you set, how much tv you allow or don't, will behave they way you want and understand or even care about consequences or making "good" choices.

I have a 10 yr old son who sounds much like your Luke, very well behaved and makes great choices. I also have an 8 yr old daughter that no matter what I do doesn't listen, talks back, is disrespectful, down right mean. So how is it that they are SO completely opposite??? Because no matter how well you parent, some children are just different and not so easily controlled or molded into "perfect" little humans. I live in complete shame often wondering where I went wrong with her.

Assuming I must have done something wrong for her to behave the way she does. But if I raised both of my children the same, why isn't my son so completely defiant? Why does he make such good choices?

Why doesn't he disrespect me and other adults? Because they're different!!! So while I'm very happy for you, I would challenge your thought process everyday of the week to think that you're parenting is just that flawless and that's why you have such a well behaved child. You got lucky! As if parents who are having trouble with their kids have been saying "Stealing is fine, son - finders keepers! This is actually a good sign, as it shows you that he has the skills to.

I also hear your concern with his statements. You can also find information on resources available in your. Best of luck to you as. I realize how. It all started around But no major trouble until He's broken down doors. Went toe to toe with his father, and I lived in fear he was going to die. At He started getting into trouble with the law. He wasn't going to school, even though I dropped him off everyday.

He has stolen our rent money and started hanging out in Southwest Detroit. He started coming home with tattoo's. He was going to school high and I was called almost everyday. I didn't know hoe to control my son.

HE was sneaking out in the middle of the night and finally was arrested for stealing from Sears and assaulting a 77 YR old lady in the parking lot, trying to steal her purse. I Love my son, but I refuse to b disrespected in my own home. Not to mention hiding anything of value. I asked the judge to save my son, cause I didn't know how. A secure facility, he didn't listen. My son went when they weren't watching and slipped out with a few other boys and broke all the windows out of one of the cabins.

He now at Wolverine secure facility that's where he is today. I thought he was getting better until he called me yesterday, and started talking about when he comes home and his demands. He said since he will be on tether he wants friends in his room including Girls, and I said.

This is my house and you will listen to my rules or you will have to go somewhere else. Then the candy cane tree will be dragged out, the mute, useless angels, the bells. I sit in the kitchen admist a sea of candied apples, or Easter eggs or some such thing and wait.

Those cowering, embarrassed afternoons. I open my notebook. Just scribbles—nothing really, from which occasionally significant numbers will rise or odd patterns. Phrases like the rubber broke , and my father storming out into the kitchen in a rage, to collect me and shout, this is a young woman , and he was referring to me, who will never allow the rubber to break. Mark my words , he says, dismissive, superior and slams the door. Endless histrionics of the pathetic afternoon.

Oh Lover Boy, oh Fever Head. The wasted afternoons. Misery of the defeated afternoon. Look to the lady. And he slinks away, feeling oddly virtuous and cheerful, and devours one ice cream after another.

Where are the husbands? All these women with their brutal, insistent need acted like my father was the only man in the world. His thick, ink-dyed hands, his blue veins, his condescension, his mild expertise drove them wild. I am making this up. A brute. Out of work, or working nights, or Sundays, and vulnerable, as a result, down on his luck—I have no idea what they saw.

And I am ever-patient, scribbling and scribbling and waiting forever for Kennedy to come. Brother-hero pulling up in his shining armor. I cower. Get down on all fours. What I would see then was more obscene than anything else I was forced to witness: the violence between father and son.

And he lifts a hand to the half-dressed woman, whoever she is, and I oddly enough, run to protect her, Look to the lady! And Father says, for the love of God, Kennedy, how have I raised you? And Kennedy releases his clenched fist of blood, his pinched fist, and demands money in his open palm, now. And he takes me away in the tortured, incredibly sad and grievous afternoon.

This quaint ceremony of male instruction and bonding done, once more at my expense, for today. Kennedy takes me to the river. He removes his work boots, his bandanna, and he puts his head in my lap. I hold his rough skull and cradle it in the evening that comes all of a sudden. It is possible that he himself around this time discontinued these forays. Though I can not really say. But one thing I know for sure. Something ended for good with Kennedy.

For all of us. Shall I confess here that I missed in a bizarre way, when those visits were finally terminated? Saturdays were suddenly empty, and I was left to my own devices. It was the only secret, the only intimacy we ever shared, and must I say it—I felt eerily closer to him as a result. Related for once. There was no other ground on which we would ever meet again. I heard his come cries. I smelled his women on him.

And do you really believe this? Think about it. I despised him. Get used to it. She calls the guard, the handsome Italian woman with the baritone voice, the one I have heard Connie whisper to in the middle of the night on the floor of the Correctional Facility, Correct me.

Connie calls her into the hall to witness the ceremonial opening of the salvation package. The guard smiles. Only I am clueless as to what Connie holds, now raising it into the air. A double dildo. For simultaneous penetration, it goes like this , and she tries to tempt me with it. And I would love to give it a whirl—just once. How have I forgotten Donna, until now? Bella Donna. Polish siren. Giving instructions. Smoking as she lowers herself onto his mouth. Her thighs like a vice.

Not satisfied to be satisfied once. Gluttonous and indifferent to his desires. I watch because I love her, from the outside window, where she will from time to time wink at me, or give me the high five sign. I watch as he goes out, leaves us all behind with the most extraordinary bellowing and swearing and I am fatherless again. And grateful to her for it. We lie outstretched in the sun and she brings me out a parasol to protect what she calls my perfect skin , and she brings me a glass of lemonade with a cherry in it, and she peeks in the window at my father and says, guess we got him pretty good this time?

She lays down next to me and we bathe in the sun. And when Kennedy pulls up she says, get the fuck out of here and never come back. Donna in her perfect, uneducated intelligence and confidence. She in her sexual blur—at the height of a kind of power women get at these times.

This woman who only moments before seemed so incapacitated, tortured, weeping even—now resurrected, intoxicated and intoxicating. And I am two-minded. And I am two-hearted. I feared and loathed these women who disrupted everything, who turned us all into stooges in the ghastly afternoon.

But I am also irresistibly touched by them. Their willingness to imagine a way free, on an unlikely afternoon once in May, with a bragging, silly peacock, crackpot. My heart hurts. The bloody, fibrous stubborn organ feels turned inside out. The tip hurts. Connie ambles in again still holding her Boomerang. She knows better than most that what goes around comes around.

Yet there is hope, one day if her behavior improves, she might get out of here. Only I am sequestered on death row. I am the one in ripped prison garb, Connie the one with sewing kit, dreaming. What a waste. In the wasted afternoon. My compromised clothes. Connie asks me what I am writing in the Death Book today. Because they are trying to rehabilitate her, correct her, because they somehow must try to imagine her out in the world again, she is forced to attend group therapy.

She has just come from a session of sharing and caring as she calls it and she is practicing now on me. She must go five times a week because she does not as she explains, engage well. Because I am fond of Connie and would like to help if I can, even in a fatuous recovery, I tell her in brief, about accompanying my father on his Saturday afternoon escapades. Connie brightens, pleased to so easily be able to relate , to call up a story of her own. She laughs with crazy glee, and remembers Lyle, her own father on the farm in upstate New York.

Already one can feel the peril of this caring and sharing routine. She too accompanied her father on dates! But at the same time, bovine, mysterious, wielding extraordinary power, even grace, in that position. Connie pulls the skin from her face to show what they looked like with their hair pulled back into tight, little buns, in the ghastly heat of the afternoon. And she is offered milk and cookies every time and they sit in silence, little Connie and the grim wives.

The husbands away, of course , out birthing or something at nearby farms. Cookies and milk and little chit chat against the muling and braying of cows, against the heaving pulse of the barn.

Away from blood and bullets. A rusty bolt was supposed to be my biggest stress. Sausalito is the remote industrial and transportation lifeline to the Bay Area community of Paradise. It has recently come under attack by malicious, belligerent, and caniballistic Raiders. The long-term effects of the terraform blast are something that may never be fully understood, but they can never be forgotten. The arkfall laid waste to the city of San Francisco, but it did not transform it into the wasteland you see today.

Scrapers began to appear in San Francisco only recently, following a series of minor arkfalls. There are rumors it is not just a local phenomenon. At the climax of the Battle of Defiance, a devastating terraform blast laid waste to the land and killed thousands.

San Francisco is a terraformed wasteland and site of the historical Battle of Defiance. Only the brave, or crazy, would enter this forsaken territory. The mutants of the Bay Area are relics of the Pale Wars; survivors altered by radiation and driven by xenophobic rage. Hellbugs are a new life form born of the terraforming after Arkfall. They are truly an indigenous species of the New Frontier. From afar, the Raiders appear to be an assemblage of a variety of races, but once you get closer… they will slit your throat.

Behind the crazed cybernetic face of each 99er lurks the tragic story of the Muir Union Miners and their descent into madness. The rogue Votanis Collective special combat force known as Dark Matter were all presumed dead, but have resurfaced as yet another deadly threat to the Bay Area. The animated junk piles known as scrappers often display group behaviors that suggest they are more than singular automatons. The Volge mysteriously appeared in the Votanis System and claimed the planet Omec, bringing the inhabitants of the planet to the brink of extinction.

The Volge may be the only threat that ultimately unifies the New Frontier or destroys it for ever. Only when all of Paradise knows that you achieved the following can you call yourself a Master Gunslinger.

The brutality of the Pale Wars was good training for the unrelenting firefights found in the wilds of the New Frontier. Your assault rifle can be your only trusted friend in the frontier. Treat it well and it will serve proudly. Many claim all Pale Wars veterans are heroes, but true heroes are the ones that still strive to inspire even after the wars are over. The New Frontier can be a lawless land where the most respect is given to the man with the biggest boomstick.

Entire armies can be defeated by a single assassin armed with a complete arsenal… and complete absence of fear. The greatest composers would be jealous of the artistry you express with a launcher in your hand. Based on stolen 99er blueprints, Gore Auger fires a massive drill bit that penetrates enemy armor to bore through them, causing piercing damage until it stops spinning.

The front mounted drill also increases melee damage. The result of grafting a genetically modified hellbug venom gland to a detonator. Venom Spitter fires a sack of corrosive fluid which bursts on impact. Constructed from destroyed Scrappers. Atomizer builds an ionic charge on enemies it hits until it overloads, shocking nearby targets. Few remain of these dual-barrel.

They are highly desired for their superior stopping power. A modified AR reserved for use by high-ranking officers in the Earth Republic. Retribution is a semi-automatic assault rifle focused on targeting enemy weak points. Highly-Customized Fragger. Holding the trigger increases the number of rounds fired upon release. Weapon made for elite dark matter sniper units. While aiming, additional rounds are loaded into the firing chamber. Fires in three-shot bursts.

The last round deals massive damage if the first 2 hit the target. Utilizing a raider pneumatic manifold, Bonesaw launches a circular saw blade that cuts straight through both armor and flesh. Multiple Electro-magnetic fields speed up a high density projectile to supersonic speeds.

Damage increases the longer the weapon is charged. Fully charged shots cause a small explosion at the point of impact. Created by 7th Legion Samurai based on stolen Volge technology. The power of a Military Vehicle Grade weapon in the palms of your hands.

High Rate-of-Fire and a large magazine make it an excellent suppression tool. Fires a burst of 5 needles overloading the target with sugar and summoning an explosive pumpkin in all 5 needles hit their target. Fires a single delivery munition that releases multiple guided pumpkins after travelling a short distance. Fires a single rocket that on impact launches a cluster of smaller bouncy projectiles which detonate over a larger area.

Fires explosive rounds that detonate on impact, attracting ravenous turkeys to attack nearby enemies. Assault Rifle that fires 3 round bursts. Landing all rounds in a burst launches an explosive snowball. High Caliber pistol focused on precision targeting. Precision kills trigger Icy Blast damaging nearby enemies,. Modified to exploit enemy weakpoints, this shotgun fires large caliber slugs instead of a spray of pellets. Destabilization results in violent outbursts of energy until all nearby fuel is consumed.

Homing Pistol built using recovered Dark Matter data. Scoring five hits in quick succession overloads your target with Decay, releasing a wave of damage over time in a wide radius.

Cooldown: 3s. A weaponized cheer delivery system. Pierces through targets dealing damage and explodes when impacting a surface. Soleptor Enterprises is a frontier corporation that was forged on the resource opportunities of the Bay Area.

Many believe Varus to be nothing but a modern day robber baron, but without his investments, Paradise would not exist.

VBI is very selective in whom they choose to do business with, let alone who they trust with their most advanced technology. It is as close as this world gets to a pre-Arkfall multi-national corporation.

Honor is not just given - it is earned. Chimera only deal with the best of the best. Only those seeking Arktech Veterans status need apply. The Grid are a novel species in Paradise. Their origin and motivations are unknown. They are hostile to all known factions. Put your enemies to sleep…permanently. Loot turkey remnants from Arkchests to build the Poultromancer prototype weapon.

Gear up for the seaon of explosive generosity. Collect gift-wrap to build the Philanthropist prototype weapon. Halt the hellbug proliferation at its source: Matured Matrons. Track down Colony Courtship major arkfalls and take them out before they can reproduce. Rampaging Bulwarks and Forges threaten the very fabric of spacetime. Take em out before we all get erased from existence. After vicious power struggles new contenders for leadership of the Dark Matter have emerged. Prevent the rise of a new tyrant and Protect Paradise!

The Afflicted plague has spread to the monstrous Hulkers. Destroy them before the spread becomes uncontrollable. The nefarious Volge have appeared en masse to try and take advantage of the peaceful holiday season.

The Elder God was next seen in the era following Blood Omen , following Raziel's refusal to murder Kain at the Sarafan Stronghold, which altered history. Over a century after their previous encounter, Raziel was shocked to discover that the Elder's amorphous body seemed to be thriving, despite the chaos in Nosgoth following the collapse of the Pillars.

His tentacles had wound up and around the Pillars' shattered stumps, in a "guilty scene" which prompted Raziel to wonder that "one would think [he'd] torn down the Pillars single-handedly". Raziel commented on the Elder's possible motives, and his hunger for souls, disdainfully arguing that "the great adversary of the vampires turns out to be the biggest parasite of them all".

Though the Elder threatened to "unmake" Raziel if he were so inclined, warning of "fates worse than death" , Raziel mocked him, calling him a cancer; "a spooling parasite burrowed deep in the heart of this world". Embittered at having been "used by others time and again" , Raziel called the Elder a " demon " , speculating as to whether he had been responsible for his resurrection at all; whether, perhaps, he had simply been "dropped in [the Elder's] lair by Kain, indestructible for some reason.

A durable and gullible tool for [him] to manipulate". He suspected by now that there was much more to his own history and destiny than either of them knew, but, whether disgruntled by Raziel's transgressions and accusations, or for other reasons, the Elder God seemed neither prepared nor willing to divulge any insight he may have had.

Raziel eventually realized the destiny the Elder God and others had apparently hidden from him; that he himself was the soul-devouring entity fated to become trapped within the Soul Reaver. Though Kain managed to postpone Raziel's fate by preventing Raziel from entering the blade , the ordeal weakened Raziel to the point of catastrophe, forcing him back into the Spectral Realm. When Kain attempted to interrogate Moebius in the caverns below the Stronghold, a few years after the slaughter of the Circle , he came upon the Time Streamer.

The Elder accused Raziel of "cowardice" , understanding that his rebellion was partially motivated by fear of the Reaver; lingering in the Underworld, the wraith was able to indefinitely postpone his "inevitable doom". Unable to deny this truth, Raziel feigned submission to his master, and was rewarded with a soul. The Elder allowed him to progress through the Underworld, but he eventually made an attempt to flee the place in one of the area's tall caverns. Though the "displeased" Elder raised blankets of lethal mist and sundered the chamber's masonry with his limbs, he was unable to prevent Raziel's narrow escape.

After emerging in the Cemetery , Raziel came upon a planar portal allowing him to enter the Material Realm, but the Elder intervened; he used his powers to withdraw all such portals in Nosgoth, forcing Raziel to possess corpses to leave the spirit world. His restraints "had not been removed, only loosened".

As he entered the Cemetery's courtyard, he was assailed by Archons - fellow agents of the Elder, "mindless hunters" which granted him a nightmarish vision of his master's ultimate plans for him.

When Kain succeeded in assembling the full Balance Emblem , he was able to enter a sealed chamber at the heart of the Vampire Citadel. A mural within depicted the ancient vampires' fall from grace, but, before he could examine it thoroughly, Kain was addressed by the Elder God's voice, emanating from a pool within the room.

Kain was unaware of the Elder and his connection to Raziel, and heeded his claim; that he was the "Oracle of [his] ancestors" , and that he could offer knowledge of Raziel. Though suspicious, Kain nevertheless felt it was imperative to reach Raziel, and passed through the temporal portal he generated to the Blood Omen era.

In the distant past, the ancients had righteously worshipped the Wheel of Fate and the unseen Elder God.

The sterility and immortality imposed upon them by the Hylden blood curse led the Elder to abandon them, which drove them to madness, and mass suicide. Raziel felt that they, "the wisest, strongest, most noble race" , had been "gulled by the voice of that old parasite".

The Avernus Catacombs proffered the Hylden side of the story; the "god-ridden and righteous" ancient vampires had started the Vampire-Hylden war , attempting to force the Hylden - who historically opposed the Elder God and the Wheel of Fate - into submission to his doctrine. As Raziel studied murals depicting the Hylden champion , he was contacted by the Elder, who affirmed his suspicion: that Raziel was this messianic figure. Raziel and Kain confronted each other in Avernus Cathedral , and Raziel was victorious, tearing the Heart of Darkness from Kain's chest.

When he returned to Vorador's Mansion to resurrect Janos, ambivalently certain that he had "once again walked blindly" into his enemies' trap, Moebius awaited. The Time Streamer gloated that "for a true servant of the one God, death is never bitter ", revealing that neither he nor the Elder had ever once been concerned over which of the champions either of them thought they were. Kain's death at Raziel's hands was all that had ever mattered to them.

Raziel resurrected Janos, who ratified the scraps of the ancient vampires' history he had uncovered. Raziel reacted with disgust when Janos spoke of the Elder reverently, referring to him as their God, and in the Spirit Forge , he was dismayed to see that the Elder's body infested the chamber. The Elder revealed that "it was Kain's destiny that mattered all along" , and tried to extinguish the Spirit Forge's flame.

Though Raziel solved the Forge and obtained the Spirit Reaver , he was soon returned to his former captivity with the Elder when the Hylden Lord destroyed his body in combat, shortly after the Pillars' collapse. The Elder had, at last, abandoned all pretense, taunting that "there is nothing more for you to do". The Elder resurrected Moebius, who had recently perished at the hands of a younger Kain, and recalled his servant to the Forge.

As Moebius died, he indicated to Kain that he served "One who has power over life and death" , sure that "all pain will fade, and [his] master [would] bring [him] life once more". Moebius's spirit emerged in the Spectral Realm, beseeching his god, but unable to see him. Raziel suddenly impaled him with the Spirit Reaver, purifying Moebius's sight, and enabling him to see the Elder's form.

Before Raziel devoured his soul, Moebius recoiled in profound horror at "the monster that [he] served". While the Elder dismissed his actions and Kain's return, Raziel reflected on his newfound knowledge. All souls were prisoners, trapped in the pointless round of existence, leading distracted, blunted lives until death returned them — always in ignorance — to the Wheel.

Due to the Elder God's nature, "Moebius had never seen his master until the Soul Reaver purified his sight. Even the ancient vampires had no idea what it was they so righteously worshipped. He used Moebius's corpse as a vessel to enter the Material Realm, and was impaled by an unwitting Kain on the Reaver. Aghast at the monstrosity that was revealed to him, Kain agonized: "had I condemned Raziel to this nightmare when I cast him into the abyss"?

The Forge tumbled as he challenged the Elder God with the newly-empowered Soul Reaver, dealing him spectacular damage for the first time in his existence. Kain taunted that "you would not fear us unless we could truly do you harm".

Flailing in fury and agony as Kain proceeded to escape the collapsing chamber, the Elder impotently assured him that he could not be destroyed, but that Kain's death was inevitable. Despite his threats and the menace he still posed, Kain was unfazed. Looking out upon Nosgoth in silence, he knew now that "the strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed". Although it is not directly named, the Elder God does appear to have some role in the cancelled spin-off Nosgoth set in the mid- events of Soul Reaver , where it seems to inspire some degree of worship among the humans of the age, with few having a clear or unified understanding of what they worship.

Shrines often show many-eyed faces and amalgamations of tentacles and marine creatures. Dieties that appear to be inspired by the Elder God include "the Seagrave" , "the Salt Lord" , "the Saint of Dark Waters" and "the Drowning God" worshipped by the Drowning Men - which is illustrated as a tentacled skull on cosmetic items and other icons.